15 February 2013

GURPS Still Sucks And You Still Shouldn't Talk About It

For a post that I wrote in about ten minutes to relieve myself of some irritation, my post about how GURPS Sucks And You Shouldn't Talk About It keeps getting comments and page hits and it's weird. Because it's not something I talk about often.

Mostly because the system itself is completely forgettable and outdone by multiple other generic systems, not to mention systems created for the game. The only distinguishing characteristics are 1) its dozens of splatbooks of widely varying quality and 2) its extreme emphasis on character creation.

In the free Lite PDF, for example, pages 7-17 are solely on advantages and disadvantages your character might have, including being slightly stinky, illiterate, or not liking to lie. These disadvantages give you points that you can spend on being stronger or mightier or having one of the dozens of lovingly detailed skills.

The rest of the PDF, obviously, is on the details of armor, weapons, and specific fiddly rules for fighting (pgs 25-29). By contrast, it gives a shred of a paragraph on world creation.

So, that's the game.

That's what people are telling you to play everything from a dungeon crawler to a high-flying kung-fu game in; a game where everything should be written down and detailed as options for you to take. That's the game.

Never mind the fact that games like Mini Six can have you generate a character in half as many steps with half as much fuss and still leave you plenty of wiggle room to make up rules. Or that a game specifically for the genre will have more support for what you're trying to do through rules and advice and neat little subsystems that fit the tone of the game (D&D, Donjon, Kill Puppies for Satan) , or have a cool resolution mechanic (Dogs in the Vinyard, Donjon again, Savage Worlds, Fate, Unknown Armies, Dungeon World), or let you make up stuff for your game without worrying about balance for everything by being lighter and out of your way so you can have fun (like Mini Six, or Risus, or D&D again). No, it's important that you mechanically create a character that's point balanced in every way using a complex and oddly fiddly system so that you can play the complex and oddly fiddly combat subgame or maybe roll a reaction table.

"But Nick," you say to me, "you can just ignore the rules you don't like!" Well then why do I need the rules at all, smarty pants?

"But Nick," you ask me, "it sounds like you don't like generic systems at all! There's nothing wrong with GURPS that isn't wrong with other generic systems!"

Yes, there is. It's the fiddliest, which means hardest to customize to my liking. If I wanted to run GURPS Dungeon without actually buying GURPS Dungeon, I'd have to write a book the size of GURPS Dungeon with half a dozen skills and advantages and disadvantages and by that point, I AM REWRITING THE GAME. What is the point of rewriting the game every time I want to do something?

And no, you don't do that in every generic game. In Mini Six, for example, you can offer a handful of skills and everybody picks some and then you're off. I wrote a scenario for Mini Six that made a modular weapon system and was in a sci-fi world and the rules changes took all of two paragraphs. Other than that, I was running standard M6, because that's how the system works. It's light enough to get out of your way.

In Risus, well, there isn't anything to rewrite because you can make things up on your character as you go along and the game supports that. You can make stuff up in a way that you can't in GURPS, because the system is designed around that. You want a truly universal game, you want Risus, because it doesn't take ten new books to play a cyborg half-rabbit jedi-slayer riding a robot killosaur.

That's why GURPS is so frustrating. It's objectively the worst generic roleplaying system but it's the only one people ever want to talk about. In a world where Action! or Active Exploits or Donjon or M6 or any of these other systems do generic better than GURPs, why is it the only one to get any love?

"But Nick, I like GURPS! And my group likes GURPS! I think you're just saying all this because you've never tried it!" You're right about that. I have never tried it. And I'd be more than happy to play in a game where somebody was running GURPS, because I'm not a dick to people who want to play games with me.

But if somebody asks me my opinion, look out.


 Short List of Better Games Than GURPS

Before somebody calls me out, here's a short list of games that do things better than GURPS. These games are all free or cheap.

Mini Six: Better character creation, better resolution, better at the table, shorter, easier to create content for.
Risus: The lightest rules you can still use
Swords and Wizardry (Whitebox): Light, easily extendable rules that, like a good bikini, cover just enough
Donjon: Generic rule set that lets you do what you want with no fuss or muss
Dungeon World: Clever, cinematic rules, surprisingly light, extremely engaging
Active Exploits: Cool diceless gaming, go look at it
Dogs in the Vineyard: Poker style resolution really amps up the suspense, great setting details
Legend of Wulin: High flying wire-fu is actually supported by the system
7th Sea: Unique setting, ORE engine is simple and awesome
Reign: See 7th Sea
Warhammer Fantasy Battles: Dangerous magic, fun setting, good character gen, deadly combat, interesting arms and armor system
Mouse Guard: Team-based gaming in a unique setting, new and fresh resolution, cool character gen that ties you into the world
Lacuna: The coolest roleplaying book ever written. You can't not want to play this.
InSpectres: See Lacuna. Same deal. This game is awesome.
Warrior, Rogue & Mage: Your character is exactly as detailed as it needs to be to go kick ass

So there you go. If you want to see a couple of games that I think are better than GURPS (and that deserve more attention than it gets), there's the short list. I'm sure I'm missing something great; feel free to let me know about it.

14 comments:

  1. I support this message and it echoes my experience with GURPS also. I bought the 3rd edition and I wanted to like it. It is very exhaustive but I - like you - could not help but feel GURPS needed to be modified for EVERY single campaign. That's not why I bought it.

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  2. I sold off all of my GURPS books years ago and haven't looked back.

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  3. Ha! Though I can't say that I am as pro-GURPS as I once was, I really think that you are making a mistake in your analysis. Especially, I can't even consider the idea that Dogs in the Vineyard has a better system than anything. It has the same problem that HeroQuest and that one game that uses Jenga to resolve actions: the system used to resolve game actions is separated from those game actions. DitV ends up becoming an exercise in pushing dice on the table, rather than worrying much about what your supposed character does. The closest thing you get to making a meaningful decision is whether or not to escalate the conflict. The rest is just making up something plausible, or implausible for that matter since no one can gainsay you if you have the dice on the table. The only thing that matters is what your dice pool says. The game could be played exactly the same without making any narratives to go with your raises at all.

    That said, I love the background, even if it is about playing arbitrary fascist secret police in a theocratic western fantasy setting. Hm, "Judges in the Vineyard". We once tried it as "Jedis in the Vineyard", which worked about as well as could be expected taking the horrible, intrusive system into account.

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    1. I'll have to let you be the judge of how good it is in play- the one session I was going to play DitV, we ended up playing Space Western in Mini Six instead.

      It did read well, though.

      Do you have any changes you'd make for when you run it next? I'd still like to run it, and could benefit from a little house-ruled help. Unless it's unfixable, anyways.

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    2. Personally, I don't think that the system is salvageable. Obviously, there are a ton of story gamers who disagree with me decisively. To me, though, the whole story game thing is too much like the stupid exercises that writers' groups come up with (and that I have personally had too much of) - the systems that come from the story games crowd all seem to me to be complicated ways of determining who writes the next line of a story, rather than making decisions from a fictional role and discovering the consequences.

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    3. Erm, I suppose that it could be salvaged, if one ignored all of the GM advice in the game (the whole "say yes" thing, the advice to tell players everything about a scene, and so on), and then does something to make the raise system meaningful. At that point, though, it becomes a completely different game that might or might not work, and that you've spent a lot of effort on. Better off converting the setting to something else: I'd suggest that Basic Roleplaying might work, with some minimal effort involving the Western and Magic supplements (the latter for the spirits to use as demonic influences).

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  4. I think GURPS is a relic from the time when players believed they had to rely on the 'official' rules, back in the 80s and 90s. GURPS and the proliferation of 2E splatbooks that lead into the bloat of 3 and 4E are an example of parallel evolution - people ate up 'the company line' as soon as they could crank it out, with the pressure to give an official rule on every eventuality.

    Of course, this proliferation eventually lead to the backlash that ignited the OSR, whose mantra of 'rulings not rules', although supposedly a characteristic of old school gaming, was utterly absent from the games I played in back in 80 and 90 whatever. Maybe Geneva Gary and his pals houseruled and made things up on the fly, but no one else I knew did. We played GURPS and liked it, but now I'd rather run something lite like S&W or Kreg Mosier's The Dead and let the colour seep out in play, not be force fed in the rules. I don't hate GURPS, but you have to be pretty into rules and the mini game of chargen to want to play it with all the other great games you listed out there and readily available...

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    1. I agree with you completely.

      Especially the part about the self-identity of the OSR- if I recall correctly, the big G himself was very concerned about people getting the rules "right," but then again, he's said a lot of things over a lot of years and finding out what he really thought is probably an exercise in futility. It's very likely he's changed his mind more than once on anything important.

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  5. Gygax, like George Lucas, is a creator whose creation has taken on a life of its own and spawned an ethos/aesthetic he didn't originally intend. The whole DIY nature of the OSR would be anathema to Gary, who railed against 'homebrew' products in numerous Dragon/Sage Advice columns, not surprising since it was his bread and butter. It is interesting to see Raggi's hybrid sales technique, where he gives the corebook PDF out free but makes money off the scenarios and hard copies. I think this strikes many OSR fans as a 'fair' business practice and garners him lots of sales he wouldn't get if he tried to nail things down like Gygax.

    To get back to GURPs, notice that they have stopped selling hard copies, but keep the digital shop going. There is a market for GURPS, but we're not in it, nor is anyone looking for an easy route into the hobby. Taste is relative, so while GURPS sucks for you, it might rule for someone who eats up rules. In addition, they can now tinker with them, and there are some GURPS rule tinkering sites out there. Thank the OSR for that - I think the DIY aesthetic it brought into the open is its true gift to the RPG hobby, although it kind of trashes the business side of things...

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  6. I enjoy playing and GMing with GURPS as much as with any of the other games we play in my groups, including Godlike, Unknown Armies, Savage Worlds, Risus, Reign or Call of Cthulhu. Does that still make a bad person and you hate me?

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    1. Yes, absolutely. Sometimes I am blinded by my sheer rage. The thought of you enjoying games makes me want to tear my walls down and then scream at passersby until I'm red in the face and my blood pressure has risen so much that my ears have popped.

      Since you've typed that out, I've actually killed both of my cats. Thanks; I'll need your contact number so my team of lawyers can sue you into poverty.

      Ok, on a serious note, though, I'm pretty sure that I said that it's just that the game system sucks, not that you're a bad person for playing it. Your goodness or badness as a person extends beyond your game choices (mostly).

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  7. I'm sorry you killed your cats, but I think you will find that a house without cat hair everywhere, smelly litter boxes and scratch marks on your couch will be much enjoyable. I'm sure my lawyer can spin this into you owing me money for improving your daily life.

    Anyway, may I direct you to the first lines in your original "GURPS sucks" post:

    > If you play GURPS, I hate you. I just want to get
    > this out of the way.
    >
    > Why, I ask?
    >
    > Because you're as fucking bad as those Apple fanboys.
    > "Oh guys, hey, did you see my new iPhone? It does
    > everything your 3 year old flip phone does except it
    > costs $400 and it has a touch screen."

    I mean, saying you hate me, or that GURPS is the worst game in the world, that's one thing. But comparing me to an Apple fanboy? I'm not going to stand there and take it, no sir! And I'll fight you as soon as I'm done finding which skills and advantages add to my Basic Move. Give me a sec, I've got, like, 17 GURPS books to check.

    Ok, so more seriously, let me go through your points:

    1) "GURPS Lite is all stats and tables and shit! So that's the game?"

    Well, the first part is true, but not the second one. First, GURPS books have some of the most interesting general purpose GMing recommendations I've found in any sytem. Second, GURPS Lite is only for getting a quick idea of how the rules works so, duh, it's all rules. It even says so in the intro. Third, other "lite PDF rules preview" are also usually rules-only to keep the page count low. Savage Worlds' "Test Drive PDF" is 16 pages with 7 pages on character creation and combat and 7 pages of tables and templates, the rest being the cover and some ads. Is that all there is to Savage Worlds? Of course not. Same thing with GURPS.

    2) "Character creation sucks! Other games make it so much simpler!"

    Yes that's totally true. You're basically taking one of GURPS' key points (character customization and granularity) and saying it sucks. That's just like looking a D&D, declaring that forcing characters into classes and discrete levels sucks, and then concluding the whole game sucks and you'll kill your cats. But it's a feature of the game, not an inherent flaw (although you're totally free to not like that feature... I myself don't like classes and levels much in general).

    Now, what you're probably saying is that you don't *need* that kind of granularity on your character sheet. Depending on the game you're playing, you can be completely right. That's why, for cinematic games and other "we just don't want to bother too much today" kind-of-games, I would use Risus or Savage Worlds. For other games that have a very specific "feel" to them which translates into the rules, I use the game's rules themselves (Godlike, Unknown Armies, etc.).

    But for gritty, "realistic" low-to-medium powered games where you want combat to be deadly, where PCs are not "heroes", and where you actually want a bit more granularity than "hey I have the 'Guns' skill so I can shoot anything at the same difficulty!", then GURPS is very nice. I used it the most when I was GMing Delta Green campaigns, for instance.

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  8. 3) "It's hard to customize"

    Not sure I got your point here. If you want to do a classic dungeon crawling game in GURPS, you don't need anything besides the core rulebook. If you looked into the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy stuff, you would see that they don't add any skills or advantages or anything. What GURPS DF does is give you archetypes/templates, so you can build characters based on that instead of from scratch, show you common traits and skills you probably want, etc. It's basically just a big list of recommendations that you can figure out yourself, followed by a big list of gear that you can also come up with yourself if you don't want to buy the book.

    It's actually very uncommon for any GURPS sourcebook to add anything to the skills or traits list defined in the core rulebook. I mean, it's already quite big enough, duh. If sourcebooks add anything, it's most of the time optional rules, if you want more or less cinematic/realistic gameplay, if you want a different kind of magic that plays differently, if you want to have very precise hand-to-hand combat or damage/wounding mechanisms, etc. Otherwise, they're mostly templates and archetypes and other pre-packaged stuff, with a lot of otherwise generic recommendations (which is why a lot of people still find those sourcebooks useful, even without using GURPS rules).


    4) Now for some GURPS PSA

    It's a very common mistake for new GURPS players and GMs to be victims of the information overload that comes with GURPS. You're not supposed to use everything, that would be pure madness. You're not even supposed to use half of it. You just use the core rulebook, and if you need some tweaking or addition, you either do it yourself or use a part of some other sourcebook. In general, you don't use more than one sourcebook, if any, at the same time.

    There are also a few other common mistakes when it comes to character creation or playing combat scenes which can also lead to options overload and a waste of time, but there's no need to get into details here. Let's just say that when handled right, I find GURPS to play actually faster than Savage Worlds -- but then again, maybe I'm doing Savage Worlds wrong.

    Now you're going to say what's the point of having to figure out what to use and not to use when you could be taking Risus or M6 and get going right away. Well, first, I barely ever had to tweak anything in GURPS (or any other system, for that matter) so I'm not sure what the problem is (maybe you should play it once first? :) ). Also, it has to do with the gameplay. As I said, most lightweight games tend to be pretty cinematic/heroic, sometimes without even knowing it. GURPS goes the other way.


    Now, if you're ever in the Vancouver area, I'll be happy to play some GURPS with you, followed by a quick trip to the BC SPCA to buy you some new cats.

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  9. Obviously you prefer rules-light games and that's fine, everyone's tastes are different. Myself, in theory I like rules-light, but in practice I don't. If I need a rule for something, that rule generally comes down to "do whatever you like" which makes me wonder why the fuck I'm bothering to play with an rpg system, made up of rules even if virtually non-existent, in the first place.

    When I need/want to bring a rule to the table, I want there to be some meat to it.

    Beyond that, other reasons to play GURPS are:
    1. You don't like classes
    2. You don't like levels
    3. You want real tactical choices that make a difference in combat, not just random dice rolling

    And if you want the system to get out of your way when you're heavy into the narrative, you can't get much more of that than with GURPS. 99% of what characters do come down to a simple stat/skill roll against 3d6. 99% of advantages/disadvantages/skills indicate exactly what they do by name alone (one of the benefits of the system's granularity).

    So yeah, there's a ton of rules to GURPS, but like every single other RPG in existence, use the ones you want and ignore the rest.

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