Why, I ask?
Because you're as fucking bad as those Apple fanboys. "Oh guys, hey, did you see my new iPhone? It does everything your 3 year old flip phone does except it costs $400 and it has a touch screen."
Yeah, fuck you GURPS.
There is a fucking enormous stack of character options. Like giant fuckstacks. There is nothing but options. Even the Lite rules are practically eternal because they can't just let you have an advantage. Everything your character is or does or has is bought or sold with points on your character sheet. Your character is part of an organization? 5 points per rank. Your character doesn't bathe regularly? 5 points. Vaguely unattractive? 5 points. Poor? Minus more points.
You spend these points to become a fire-breathing cyborg or a mighty sorcerer or some shit. I dunno, I just have the Lite rules, and these are bad enough, thanks. I mean, seriously, this entire 30 page "lite" rules are just fucking COMBAT RULES AND CHARACTER GENERATION. There's like a 3 page section for GMs, which leads me to believe that this game is roll-playing at its goofiest.
There is literally nowhere in this game that your actions aren't rigidly defined by the system. Talking, movement, the speed of your thoughts, what you can do while fighting, everything is defined even in the Lite rules. Where's the game at?
That's the big question to me.
Where is GURPS a game? Where is the part where you put down the dice? Is there any part of it?
Anywhere?
So fuck GURPS. General and universal my ass. GURPS is good if you're running a game where having a billion skills and extensive, exhaustive combat rules is a plus, which (as I recall now) is right around 0% of fiction and 0% of reality.
Outstanding. What a brilliant game. I can see why people would recommend that I run my wuxia game in GURPS seeing as how the system is so free-flowing and open and dramatic, or GURPS Zombies because it handles psychological stress and the inevitability of death and makes zombies an implacable foe worthy of actual fear, or GURPS Fantasy because it lets magic be mysterious and has a free-flowing combat system and gets out of the way so I can play.
Oh wait, it's the opposite of all that.
Fuck that game.
I remember a friend of mine saying that in Gurps even a squirrel can kill you if it rolls high on the dice :)
ReplyDeleteI've always seen and heard people talk about GURPS, but the generic nature of the game always turned me off. And the name itself doesn't exactly evoke dreams of dark fantasy! Based on your summary, I may continue along blissfully ignorant of the game.
ReplyDeleteIf anything, scavenge the sourcebooks and ignore the actual rules text inside. Some of the sourcebooks are pretty good.
DeleteNothing wrong with squirrels killing carefully pencilled point-optimized firebreathing cyborgs.
ReplyDeleteOnce, I found GURPS to be great and encompassing my needs … as a gamer without a group. Moving points and multipliers and dividers around according to some arbitrary rulings was a great way to spend times fantasizing about actually playing stuff. Luckily, I ran into other stuff by way of the internet before turning into a GURPS/HERO gearhead. (Yes, I had a lapse with Mutants&Masterminds, but I recovered)
GURPS as an RPG System is an unholy beast.
ReplyDeleteGURPS Sourcebooks are almost divine.
It's a Ying/Yang sorta thing ;)
You and me, Erik, we see eye to eye on this.
DeleteI have commented before that while I like the writing in GURPS and the GURPS splats are some of the best researched books in the game market, GURPS itself has no soul.
ReplyDeleteWhile I don't hate it, I certainly don't love it either.
I should probably have mentioned, I LOVE the splatbooks. They're fantastic, and fun, and cool.
DeleteBut the system they're attached to is absolutely not.
Wow, man. I'm pretty impressed with your 2009 flip phone. What brand is it? My iPhone carries my favorite cookbook (in searchable form), lets me deposit checks from anywhere, and automatically uploads my pictures to my home computer. My dad's iPhone lets him ignore my mom in favor of Angry Birds, my mom's helps her find restaurants, my boyfriend's gives him access to his IRC chat rooms from everywhere (and lets him text me silly little fox emoticons), and my brother's... I don't know what my brother does with his. He keeps his music on his 160GB iPod classic.
ReplyDeleteGURPS, on the other hand, lets me play a laser-sword wielding space princess in a world-hopping steampunk game with (among other characters) a flying monkey and a teleporting telepathic space cat. So I think it's pretty cool, too.
I use my GPS to find restaurants, I ignore people with Tetris, and store music on the little external USB card. For depositing checks, I usually go to a bank but that's mainly because I don't understand how digital check depositing works (When it comes to using technology for things that are useful, I'm a caveman. =/) My cookbook is in my head, because I've watched enough Alton Brown/Paula Deen/Andrew Zimmern/that one Man vs Food show to know that 99% of recipes follow a pretty basic formula. Alternately, I could look up a cookbook online. Or search "chicken recipes" from the browswer.
DeleteAnd see, laser sword space steampunk princess is Rifts in a nutshell.
Score one, this guy.
Oh, so you were *lying.* Got it.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds fairly vindictive. Jealous of my flip phone, are we?
DeleteThe point isn't "My phone can do everything your phone can do," the point is "my phone can do everything I need it to do." Between four functions (phone/text/GPS/web browser) my phone can do 99% of what a fancier phone does at less than half the cost and complexity.
There's a metaphor here, see. GURPS has a thousand options, but doesn't provide any more functionality than a lighter game that has twelve broad options and a quarter of the rules. You can make a varied and nuanced warrior in GURPS by attributing various options and advantages and statistics, or you can play oD&D and call him a fighter and express the rest in prose.
I'd rather do option number two and save myself half an hour, much like I'd rather make use of the four options on my phone than spend $400 for things I don't need.
GURPS is like a cow; you can't eat the whole thing at once, so take only the cuts you want.
DeleteOkay, I should probably come clean: I'm needling you. Because I'm bored, and you're being an asshole. Not really an excuse.
Delete"My phone/game system can do everything I need it to do" is a legitimate point. You are totally right! If a flip phone does everything you need and want it to do, you'd be an idiot to get an iPhone. (I'm very fond of mine, and I find it amusing that so many people I know have them, but it's by no means essential. There are, in fact, a lot of advantages to *not* having one, outside of the expense.) Likewise, if other systems do everything you need them to do, you probably shouldn't be messing around with GURPS.
But I happen to like GURPS. I enjoy the game I'm playing in with it, and I enjoy messing around with the system in general. Me and GURPS have had some rocky moments, but we've had a lot of good times, too.
Which makes you hate me, I guess. So... good for you?
Hey, I'm not (trying to be) an asshole, although I'm not surprised I'd come off that way. I thought it was clear that the hyperbole was excessive enough, or the aggression different enough from my usual style that it would be more of a teasing than anything.
DeleteAnd about the iPhone/GURPS thing: It's mostly because of evangelists that this guy is so annoyed. The circles I frequent (fairly popular messageboards) have a large GURPS fanbase, and every time anybody even hints that they're looking for a system, it's GURPS. It's same thing with iPhones- something about them invites unwarranted evangelism.
It's not so much that I hate people that like GURPS, it's more that I'm tired of hearing about it like it's the end-all, be-all of systems.
Also, I felt like having people discuss this issue with me, and you don't get much discussion when you post a half-assed "Oh man, GURPS is wierd and I don't know why people like it." If there's one thing I've learned from the internet, to get any serious discussion, you have to start some fires.
So let me ask you: What specifically is it about GURPS that you like so much? I'm not kidding when I say that I don't see what the fuss is, no matter what inflammatory terms I put it in. I honestly don't get it. I'm like an old guy looking at kids listening to dubstep here.
So, instead of just flipping through the rulebook and saying 'I hate it cause I do', how's about you play in a game of it and tell us why - I'd find that more interesting, convincing, and in the spirit of your blog, which is usually pretty cool. It won't convert you to GURPS, but you might find a few stealable ideas and see why some people like it.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, the idea that my blog has a spirit is pretty amusing to me, since I generally post off the top of my head and in about five minutes in between the other things I'm doing, so I'd like to thank you for that compliment of sorts.
DeleteBut about GURPS- I'd have to either get in an online group or play it myself, and I know me. I'm likely to ignore no less than half the rulebook when I'm GMing because I get caught up in the narrative and forget to make people roll things, and I don't know where I'd look to try and find an online game of GURPS.
I wouldn't turn one down if somebody offered me a slot in one. I've got enough free time between my job and my home life, and I haven't been a player in a long time. It could be a nice change of pace, even if it's not my cup of tea (at all.)
Ted, you've got a good point.
You really do need to play it to see how simple it can be. I understand the 4th ed is a little more complicated than necessary but the thing is you can spend as much time as you want creating your character and then you pretty much only need to understand that you roll under the target number on 3d6.
ReplyDeleteI would rate it easier than say Rolemaster, 3rd or 4th ed D&D, or HERO but harder than basic D&D, C&C, or Marvel Supers.
FWIW the most involved roleplaying I've played has generally been GURPS. The combat system is so deadly you find out that it's best to avoid combat.
But hey, different strokes.
I haven't played as much GURPS as I have the HERO system (another extremely technical point-buy game, almost identical actually), but the one comment on this I have to ask about: How can a squirrel have a hope in Hell of hurting anything in GURPS? The whole point of a pointbuy game (geddit?) is that your character's capabilities are rigidly defined. Is this irony that I'm just missing (that does happen often)?
ReplyDeleteMan, I'm sorry but I have to say you really don't know GURPS at all... Why this Flamewar?!
ReplyDeleteYou should be fair: How many times did you actually play in a group which uses GURPS? And did they have an experienced GM? Was it 4th ed.?
Probably you are already convinced that you don't like the game no matter what comes, so it's wasted, but if you're open minded I'd really recommend playing it with an experienced GM! (for instance at a rpg-convention)
IMHO it's a great rpg-system and the basic rules _are_ simple! Yes, you can use a lot of advanced, optional rules but these are optional, as the name indicates. I played GURPS with total beginners and they did understand the core mechanics after few minutes. Just having played Pathfinder yesterday I'd even say that the basic D&D rules are more complicated in direct comparison.
I have to let you know in advance that this is a three month old post.
DeleteSecondly, the real reason it's annoying, as I've mentioned, is that it bills itself as a general and universal game without actually doing either. It's like the D20 craze that exploded on the internet a couple of years ago. When you get right down to it, you're just playing D&D with a western theme on top of it. So it is with GURPS. You have the basic rules, which play about as well as you'd expect a "general universal" game to play- they're pretty boring rules, really. It's cool if you like them, because they seem like they would work. BUT (and it's a big but) it's a limited toolset. It can technically emulate any genre, but it does so poorly, by focusing on character building as a means of defining what the game is about. That's not really how it works. Creating a fantasy game isn't about what your character can do, although to prove it I'd have to write a separate post.
Also: Pathfinder isn't basic D&D. Third edition rules are overly complicated and PF doesn't care one bit, since it was made for people who loved third edition and wanted to keep playing it. It's one of the worst rulesets I've read, for nearly the same reasons I don't like GURPS, but at least PF doesn't make the mistake that "if you write a lot of supplements, the game can be about anything," because it knows that no matter how much you torture the base rule set, you're still playing D&D in space.
I realize that this post is six months old by now, but wow! What an inane set of criticisms of GURPS (and iPhones, for that matter)!
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight: You downloaded a 30-page rulebook for a game (note the operative word: GAME), and you’re confused as to why it has thirty pages of rules?? What did you expect to find in there, if not rules? And you’re criticizing GURPS because it has too many options? It’s supposed to be a generic system, which is where all the options come in. You take the ones you need, and leave the rest.
Really, it’s like you’re saying that a restaurant is terrible because the menu is too big. “Fifty different entrees?!? I can’t eat that much food! I would get sick afterwards, and probably die! This restaurant sucks!”
And really, the iPhone rant? Please! I can use the same analogy here: “This restaurant is terrible! Why do they have so many dishes? All I want is a hamburger, and they expect me to pay ten bucks?! I can buy a hamburger at McDonald’s for one dollar!”
“Well yeah, but the restaurant hamburger is going to be much better!”
“But I don’t NEED a hamburger that good!”
So really, it’s not the iPhone’s fault that it does a bunch of things that you don’t care about. And it’s not GURPS’s fault that it has a bunch of rules that you don’t care about. If you’re happy with an OD&D fighter, then great! Obviously GURPS isn’t for you. But that doesn’t make it a bad game; it just means that you’re happy with something simple.
You're entitled to your opinion.
ReplyDeleteSome like GURPs, some don't.
While I DO agree that there are limits to GURPs (especially if you don't get the supplements), that doesn't stop people from liking it and playing it.
Also, raging on your opinion that it's horrifically bad and like what you did in this post WOULD attract people who would defend GURPs, so I recommend you try to either be more constructive or try to calm down before posting.
Personally, I'd say that GURP's complexity is what makes it sell.
True, it requires a lot of maths, but a lot of the rules are optional.
For rules that are overtly complicated (like vehicle creation in GURPs Vehicles, for example), Steve Jackon tried to make it more simpler (like, in the case of GURPS Vehicles, making the fourth edition vehicle creation resemble more like character/equipement creation).
Continue hating it if you want to hate it.
Just don't expect anyone to convert to your viewpoint on why you hate it (due to the anger in your post).
I'm not trying to argue with you.
If you'd like, I can make a calmer, more reasoned post of why I dislike GURPS. But GURPS is pretty divisive- I find that people either love it and everything it does or they dislike it and everything it does.
DeleteI think I mentioned above about how this post was primarily a reaction to a certain subset of people talking about how GURPS is the best system for everything, when it clearly (and obviously) isn't.
You know, I think I will make another post about GURPs. This article is a perennial favorite, apparently, and maybe angry GURPS fans would like to read something else once in a while.
Once upon a time (1989 or so) I was severely fed up with D&D/AD&D. I was also fed up with having to use a lot of very different game systems for our various games (yes, I'm the eternal GM).
ReplyDeleteI was recommended to try GURPS (3rd ed) and I did, as I had respect for SJG after some early games of Fantasy Trip. At first, the options seemed infinite and the advantage/disadvantage system seemed pretty cool. We converted our AD&D1e characters mid-adventure and went on from there and everyone was happy, including me at first. I then ran Call of Cthulhu and 2300 AD using GURPS. A lot of converting, but I was happy with my "one game to rule them all" philosophy.
After a year or so, however, I started to grow tired of GURPS.The grand AD&D campaign stalled and died and we took up playing other games instead.
I don't know what it is, but GURPS is so generic, so un-sexy, so "meh". No flavor at all. This was most apparent with the AD&D game that went GURPS. The adventure (that was a long story arc 80's style went from the fantastic to the mundane. Suddenly a bunch of wolves or bandits would pose a serious threat to the otherwise quite capable PC:s (in AD&D terms anyway). And CoC felt vastly different from playing with the original BRP rules. As did 2300 AD. And not to the better. Maybe it's the generic-ness or maybe it's the overly complicated games system, or a combination of both? On the other hand, reading BRP:s big gold book gives me ideas and inspiration and I've nicked some cool mechanics for our ongoing CoC game.
Nowadays I choose game system based on what type of game I desire. OSR D&D (or some clone thereof) for...well D&D style fantasy. RuneQuest or some other BRP variant for more gritty fantasy. Mongoose Traveller for sci-fi games. Call of Cthulhu BRP for CoC or Delta Green for modern style horror games. The rules chosen does influence the game played in a most tangible way. I've learned my lesson.
But I don't hate GURPS. I'd gladly join a game as a player. But I really dislike the idea of universal rules systems. Different gaming systems support different styles of play, and I think that we should support that.
GURPS is like the PATRIOT act, both are contained within large volumes of writing and grant people specific powers at specific times within specific guidelines under both normal and special circumstances and with preconditions for their use abounding... But no one bothers to read it because no one cares enough and it's not that interesting and most of the rules in either document express a situation 99% of people either won't be in or could get out of with common sense. GURPS may have you covered, but you really don't need that many rules.
ReplyDeleteI really like the analogy.
DeleteI think I might "borrow" it in the future sometimes.
Seriously though, why are there so many rules? There are so very many rules, and there's no possible way people are using even a tiny fraction of them in their daily play.
I like running GURPS for modern to future type games and Pathfinder for fantasy and sometimes steampunky type games.
ReplyDeleteI hate 4th ed. D&D
I am very happy that you are playing games that you enjoy.
DeleteGURPS isn't really a role-playing game. It's a "make-you-own-rpg" kit. If you're willing to put in the work to take what you need, come up with a cool setting, story, characters, etc., decide which of the rules you're going to use, you can create the perfect game. But it's a bigger commitment than most are willing to put in. Which is why you get people picking up the book, flipping through it and saying, "This sucks! who needs all these rules?" Some of the splatbooks do this for you. I recommend the Dungeon Fantasy line of short pdfs for that old-school D&D feeling.
ReplyDeleteI did find the following statement of yours a bit ironic: "Where is GURPS a game? Where is the part where you put down the dice? Is there any part of it?"
It's a game. With dice. Are we talking tabletop rpgs here? They're games. Played with dice. I like playing pretend as much as the next guy, but dice and rules make it a game with mechanics instead of a meeting of your Monday night improv group. GURPS gives you a rule for everything, which allows the GM to decide whether he wants to play things out in a freeform way or use a published rule to handle an interaction, a conflict, whatever. I personally don't need a book to tell me how to play pretend. But it's nice to have a book that has fair, balanced, realistic rules for handling in-game situations, along with the only rpg combat system I've ever played in which the tactical decisions made by the characters involved actually have a huge impact on the outcome.
Interesting, this is the thread that would not die.
ReplyDeleteI have never played GURPS, but I have been downloading everything I could get my hands on that is free on the internet as I love 2300AD and there is a conversion for that. Mongoose just came out with a new version of 2300AD but I think the prices they charge for a .PDF is a bit ridiculous.
I can see where you were going with your original post, but as we all know the way we read our words as we type them is not necessarily how other will read them.
I thought the original post was funny and sarcastic and obviously posted as your opinion. I have not actually played GURPS yet so I cannot give an opinion on it, but the iPhone thing does get annoying, kind of like that whole PC vs Mac thing or Windows vs Linux years ago.
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